Curse

Aeve Haleheart · Aug 25, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

Ahhhh this is where we get caught in our own trap."If my Undead are reskins then why cant yours be".

Yea, I saw an opening and went for it xD

@ Azazel: I have just one thing to say:

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Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

they would have done a better job

Don't you think they would have done a better job on the Shadow Army? They even left the emblem on (!), so saying that in the case of just re-modelling they would have done a better job, is simply not something you can do.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 25, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

I'm rather lost as to what your trying to point to here.

Nowere do i see myself saying the Cauldron caused the Cataclysm. The first bolded line is me saying the magic used to destroy Orr was destructive like the magic to destroy Ascalon was.

And then the second bolded part is me about to give examples of what the Searing and Cataclysm looked like? and then the third bolded line is me saying "what if the magic used in the Cataclysm was borrowed magic?".

Here allow me:

Please do not try to make things out of my post that are not already there.

Never meant to add in, I was just pointing out where I got confused, from constant going back and fourth between the Cataclysm and the Cauldron. That is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeve Haleheart

Don't you think they would have done a better job on the Shadow Army? They even left the emblem on (!), so saying that in the case of just re-modelling they would have done a better job, is simply not something you can do.

They should have done a better job, but there is so much you can do before you say "screw it, lets make it easier on us, I'm sick of working on this game."

There are some things in the game ANet puts lots of effort into, like the differences in Temple Guardian/Roaring Ether/Charr Hunter Beasts, using the same model but makes it so you have to look closely at them to tell the similarities, and there are the things they put little to no effort to, Aatxes/Shadow Army/Skeleton Army.

There is only so much work a group of people can do before being fed up and deciding to take the "easy road" sadly.

natmarie21 · Aug 25, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

i just found something that struck me as interesting. we had all generally accepted that orr territory did not extend up to the tarnished coast, and north kryta province due to wiki sometimes being unreliable, yes? well, the official and unofficial wikis beg to differ, and the latter seems to have some evidence backing its claim

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Glaive <-this page says that lady glaive requested a resting place after her defeat in the 2nd great corsair war from King Zoran of Orr and he gave her crew the shards of orr to stay in(could this also be linking orr to istan?)

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Souls this quest tells us that the waters along tarnished coat were orrian

also, taking into account the fact that in the gates of kryta mission, the bonus is retrieving an orrian text next to an orrian-looking boat-according to Orrian Historian McClain(yes, the ship could have crash landed), and the frequent drops of decayed orr emblems, armor, and collars etc from the skeleton army; orr once controlling the tarnished coast, and parts of kryta could be plausable. also, orr was a penisula and was mainly surrounded by water, sailing would be easier then a long trek through the crystal desert, and with that in mind, the possible 'sea-faring' orrians would probably take a warming to the 'sea-faring' corsairs.

i've edited a map of tyria to show a possible root taken by the orrians, it's a bit scruffy because i only did it in 5 mins. remember on the walk root, they would get back to the coast(for tarnished area) using the same path. there are loads of possible routes, but i just thought that i'd show one and prove that it wouldn't be hard to jump from region to region. also, considering that orr had an army the same size/force of ascalon, and that orr was; what? half ascalons size? it shows that fights would be evenly matched and orr would have a fair chance of winning.

on topic:
if you're going to touch your left ear, would you a. use you left hand
or b. use your right hand + reach around the top of your head. a. would be easier, in the same way, re-using skins is alot easier then creating brand new ones. ANet probably had alot else to do when they created these creatures, and they probably also knew that it would spark discussions like this-'is it this, is it that?'

Kerwyn Nasilan · Aug 25, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

On the Orrian Armor being in the City, I think this is more the fact that anything that is undead drops orrian armor, and sephis axes, exc. I don't think it is a story element. Same as I think the reason we see the eye symbol all over the place (kryta, UW) is just reusing skins. Most everything in the FoW is a reskin. If the skeleton army is Orrian then the Shadow Army are white mantle, explain that.

Free Runner · Aug 25, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

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Originally Posted by natmarie21

(could this also be linking orr to istan?)

No. She just struck a deal with the King. Kind of a "Hey you look away while we just settle in your waters" deal.

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also, taking into account the fact that in the gates of kryta mission, the bonus is retrieving an orrian text next to an orrian-looking boat-according to Orrian Historian McClain(yes, the ship could have crash landed), and the frequent drops of decayed orr emblems, armor, and collars etc from the skeleton army; orr once controlling the tarnished coast, and parts of kryta could be plausable. also, orr was a penisula and was mainly surrounded by water, sailing would be easier then a long trek through the crystal desert, and with that in mind, the possible 'sea-faring' orrians would probably take a warming to the 'sea-faring' corsairs.

You understand that the Undead are actually Orrian (the ones in Kryta at least) which is why they drop Orr emblems ect. And a ship that crash landed on the Southern part of Kryta does not go well with trying to explain a possible reign in the Northen part of Kryta. Infact it seems absurd - Kryta could cut them off very easily. It would be like Kryta trying to establish a settlement in the Eastern Frontier of Ascalon during the Guild Wars.

Now Orr didnt control the Tarnished Coast. It controlled the waters around it and the Shards of Orr.

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If the skeleton army is Orrian then the Shadow Army are white mantle, explain that.

natmarie21 · Aug 25, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

i was saying that there was lots of evidence of orrians being in kryta, like the ship, which i was saying could have crash landed there explaining how it was a shipwreck. it's more likely though that they sailed into that little crecieve in the middle of the night and began an ambush.

i know that the undead in kryta are/almost definately orrian

how can you control the waters around somewhere and not own at least the coast. if you were in that position, wouldn't the next step be to get the land along the area of sea? also, it never explicitly says that orr controlled just the water. it says that it was orrian territory + says nothing else after that. you saying that they just controlled the water around tarnished coast seems to be plucked out of thin air because you have no evidence to back it up.

Free Runner · Aug 25, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

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Originally Posted by natmarie21

it says that it was orrian territory + says nothing else after that. you saying that they just controlled the water around tarnished coast seems to be plucked out of thin air because you have no evidence to back it up.

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Following Lady Glaive's defeate during the Second Great Corsair War, we sailed north aboard Glaive's ship, the Queen of Fools, into Orrian waters along the Tarnished Coast. There was a mutiny, and our souls became forfeit in a vicious cycle of betrayal. We need your help to end the cycle. We need revenge! But first we must be freed....

There. I've just plucked this out of thin air. As shown on the maps you provided the Tarnished Coast and Orr are pretty much next to each other- so obviously whos waters would they be? the Tarnished Coast doesnt exactly have people to care about them, Kryta are further away than Orr. You know how Kryta has yet to extend into a certain neighbouring region in Tyria? Orr is probably the same.

Now show me your evidence for them controlling the Tarnished Coast. Show me the source that will say they controlled anything past the water. And i dare you to say "Shards of Orr".

Infact:

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it says that it was orrian territory

What does? can you cite a source as to what is saying Orr controlled the Tarnished coast? quest? monument? npc? what have i missed?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 25, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by natmarie21

i just found something that struck me as interesting. we had all generally accepted that orr territory did not extend up to the tarnished coast, and north kryta province due to wiki sometimes being unreliable, yes? well, the official and unofficial wikis beg to differ, and the latter seems to have some evidence backing its claim. Free Runner stated what I stated several times, it was a "blind eye" deal.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Glaive <-this page says that lady glaive requested a resting place after her defeat in the 2nd great corsair war from King Zoran of Orr and he gave her crew the shards of orr to stay in(could this also be linking orr to istan?)

That quest is the only reason why the Tarnished Coast part was kept on wiki.

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http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Souls this quest tells us that the waters along tarnished coat were orrian

I read through the dialogue *again* and saw nothing of that. The only "control" they would have is the same type of control the Undead Dragon has, constant patrolling ships.

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also, taking into account the fact that in the gates of kryta mission, the bonus is retrieving an orrian text next to an orrian-looking boat-according to Orrian Historian McClain(yes, the ship could have crash landed), and the frequent drops of decayed orr emblems, armor, and collars etc from the skeleton army; orr once controlling the tarnished coast, and parts of kryta could be plausable. also, orr was a penisula and was mainly surrounded by water, sailing would be easier then a long trek through the crystal desert, and with that in mind, the possible 'sea-faring' orrians would probably take a warming to the 'sea-faring' corsairs.

1. The boat probably did crash into the water over there. 2. the frequent drops of Orrian items are due to the Orrian Undead *not Skeleton Army, two different thigns*, which as stated in the mission dialogue, came from Orr.

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i've edited a map of tyria to show a possible root taken by the orrians, it's a bit scruffy because i only did it in 5 mins. remember on the walk root, they would get back to the coast(for tarnished area) using the same path. there are loads of possible routes, but i just thought that i'd show one and prove that it wouldn't be hard to jump from region to region. also, considering that orr had an army the same size/force of ascalon, and that orr was; what? half ascalons size? it shows that fights would be evenly matched and orr would have a fair chance of winning.

because they could travel to the area does not mean that they [/I]control the area[/I]. Also, the Orrian army were peaceful *as I forgot earlier, but found in the manuscripts* and wanted peace, they would not, and did not, start a war.

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on topic:
if you're going to touch your left ear, would you a. use you left hand
or b. use your right hand + reach around the top of your head. a. would be easier, in the same way, re-using skins is alot easier then creating brand new ones. ANet probably had alot else to do when they created these creatures, and they probably also knew that it would spark discussions like this-'is it this, is it that?'

I really cannot tell who's side you are on with this comment with the re-use of skins/models (and if don't have to reach around the top of my head to touch the opposing ear, I more naturally go under my chin).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

On the Orrian Armor being in the City, I think this is more the fact that anything that is undead drops orrian armor, and sephis axes, exc. I don't think it is a story element. Same as I think the reason we see the eye symbol all over the place (kryta, UW) is just reusing skins. Most everything in the FoW is a reskin. If the skeleton army is Orrian then the Shadow Army are white mantle, explain that.

/agreed with the FoW using mostly reskins *same with UW monsters*. /disagree with that anything undead drops orrian armor *all armor are constant reskins, only trophies should be taken into consideration, and only the Orrian Undead drop Decayed Orr Emblems*

Quote:

Originally Posted by natmarie21

i was saying that there was lots of evidence of orrians being in kryta, like the ship, which i was saying could have crash landed there explaining how it was a shipwreck. it's more likely though that they sailed into that little crecieve in the middle of the night and began an ambush.

If they sailed there to begin an ambush, why would there be a journal there? And according to Orrian Historian McClain, the ship is old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orrian Historian McClain

You found Oink! You've made my son very happy. Maybe I can return the favor. There's a shipwreck, in a cove southwest of here. It looks to be an old Orrian ship. If you find anything of interest down there, perhaps I can help you identify it.

If the ship was used as an assault, with the people of Orr being peaceful, it would have to be an assault ship by the Undead *dunno why they would need a ship when they can just walk underwater, shown in D'Alessio Seaboard mission*, and if it was a ship sailed by Undead, it wouldn't be old.

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how can you control the waters around somewhere and not own at least the coast. if you were in that position, wouldn't the next step be to get the land along the area of sea? also, it never explicitly says that orr controlled just the water. it says that it was orrian territory + says nothing else after that. you saying that they just controlled the water around tarnished coast seems to be plucked out of thin air because you have no evidence to back it up.

How did Napoleon prevent trade with Britain if he couldn't control parts of Britain land? How did submarines sail along the US and other coasts during WWII without being on land? What you're basically asking is the same thing, but dealing with a game and not actual history. It is possible to control waters by constantly patrolling those waters with multiple ships, and when you spot an enemy, you fire. That simple. When you have ships patrolling a part of a sea, others get intimidated and don't want to cross paths, which creates a blockade, and allows you to control those waters. Also, Free Runner says how it says nothing about owning anymore land then just the Shards of Orr.

It is very possible that the Shards of Orr was used as a refueling dock/storage for patrol ships, but when Glaive needed a refuge, King Zoran stopped the patrols, which would in turn allow Canthan ships to finally come *although news would take time, so if this is the case, that could explain some of the 55 years between the Second Great Corsair War and the Second Treaty of Lion's Arch*.

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

Infact:

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it says that it was orrian territory

What does? can you cite a source as to what is saying Orr controlled the Tarnished coast? quest? monument? npc? what have i missed?

Show me too please.

natmarie21 · Aug 25, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

And i dare you to say "Shards of Orr".

okay..."Shards of Orr".

if you control shards of orr then the people residing along the tarnished coast would have pushed them out. but it clearly remained orrian territory for some time. and even if there was a large scale battle down there, it would be too big an event to go unnoticed. so how did they stay down there so long? they controlled the tarnished coast coast or at least the part around it.

you're saying that they only contolled the sea, but where does it explicitly say "they only controlled the sea and not the coast aswell?

answer me that

oh, and i was saying that on the lost souls quest an NPC says that the sea that they sailed into was orrian.

natmarie21 · Aug 25, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

If they sailed there to begin an ambush, why would there be a journal there?

i dunno, perhaps he was the captain or deck scrubber and was writing a journal of all of his 'adventures'

and we can assume that this journal writer is a human which makes your comment about the ship being sailed by undead as invalid because undead are enemies of humans

"Following Lady Glaive's defeat during the Second Great Corsair War, we sailed north aboard Glaive's ship, the Queen of Fools, into Orrian waters along the Tarnished Coast. There was a mutiny, and our souls became forfeit in a vicious cycle of betrayal. We need your help to end the cycle. We need revenge! But first we must be freed...."

that there is the dialogue(with accept/decline options) on the quest. note the part where it says 'into ORRIAN WATERS along the tarnished coast" <---that's my citation

Free Runner · Aug 25, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Hey there i would like to introduce you to my previous post.

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Originally Posted by Myself on Page 2

This was brought up in the other thread. The Tarnished Coast is actually uninhabited prior to the Asura. Well okay the Mursaat may of been there. But other than that all it had was its many Simian, Dinosaurs and Frogmen. The Orrian expansion is actually reffering to the Shards of Orr - inside it looks alot like present day Cantha on the first level.

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Originally Posted by natmarie21

if you control shards of orr then the people residing along the tarnished coast would have pushed them out

What people? there was nobody there. Its basicly a huge uncharted area.

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you're saying that they only contolled the sea, but where does it explicitly say "they only controlled the sea and not the coast aswell?

Your right it doesnt say they ONLY controlled the sea. But then again it never says they controlled the Tarnished Coast. Oh wait yeah a set of Orrian underground tunnels have an opening on the coast. That must mean they had control of it!

Nobody controlled the Tarnished Coast.Orr had a way to get there but that doesnt mean they had control of it. Its like the Magumma Jungle.

If you can find me a single bit that says they controlled the TC then i will take everything i said back.

Gmr Leon · Aug 25, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

As to Azazel's bit about Awata, it has not been confirmed by Anet that it was a Charr while alive, but honestly, do we need confirmation on that? At least we're not trying to make a theory that the Charr ruled from the plains of Ascalon to the Desolation.

Which is nearly as absurd as the link you're trying to make with the Lost Scrolls having been from Fahranur. Honestly..Why can't Fahranur have the Apocrypha and Arah have the Lost Scrolls? Is there something so evil, so undeniably horrible about that that you just cannot even begin to accept the fact, that if you were to do so, it would not drive all your conceptions of reality out the window and break your mind down to the point of insanity?

natmarie21 · Aug 25, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

well, can you give me a citation that says that nobody lived at TC? i'm pretty sure that the mursaat did. i'm pretty sure that they resided in rata sum which is an anagram for mursaat. i'm pretty sure that ullen river has a dark shroud which covers the mursaat controlled city of rata sum.

ok. i've looked in the web. and no where does it explicitly say that the orrians did control tarnished coast, but why would they say that? after all, they fun isn't in the kill, it's in the chase. but there are a number of reasons as to why the orrians would want to control TC. the 2nd great corsair war ended around the time that the guild wars started. before the guild wars started, i think it's pretty clear that orr could see it coming. kryta + ascalon had already started fueding, orr stayed neutral and only intervened when the fight went to them. if orr controlled TC they could have taken the fight to kryta. kryta would be trapped-ascalon in the east, orr, south/west depending on the time and how far north the orrians had travelled.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 25, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

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Originally Posted by natmarie21

-snip stupid comment on tarnish coasst inhabitants-

I was hoping I could go on a rant about the first paragraph. Too bad Free Runner beat me.

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you're saying that they only contolled the sea, but where does it explicitly say "they only controlled the sea and not the coast aswell?

answer me that

Same thing Free Runner said. If it is not stated they did control the land, as far as we can prove as fact, they didn't.

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oh, and i was saying that on the lost souls quest an NPC says that the sea that they sailed into was orrian.

The NPC only talks about the water, not the land, and it was the land you talked about.

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Originally Posted by natmarie21

i dunno, perhaps he was the captain or deck scrubber and was writing a journal of all of his 'adventures'

He was a Historian, not a Captain, not a Scrubber, and the historian would not risk himself to join an assault and risk almost certain death.

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and we can assume that this journal writer is a human which makes your comment about the ship being sailed by undead as invalid because undead are enemies of humans

the undead were one humans, and that bit was a bit of sarcasm, as it is proven in the Seabed mission, as I stated, that they walked to shore from underwater.

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"Following Lady Glaive's defeat during the Second Great Corsair War, we sailed north aboard Glaive's ship, the Queen of Fools, into Orrian waters along the Tarnished Coast. There was a mutiny, and our souls became forfeit in a vicious cycle of betrayal. We need your help to end the cycle. We need revenge! But first we must be freed...."

that there is the dialogue(with accept/decline options) on the quest. note the part where it says 'into ORRIAN WATERS along the tarnished coast" <---that's my citation

This proves nothing on your point. Both me and Free Runner have CONSTANTLY said that Orr only controlled the waters, that citation only helps us and not you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As to Azazel's bit about Awata, it has not been confirmed by Anet that it was a Charr while alive, but honestly, do we need confirmation on that? At least we're not trying to make a theory that the Charr ruled from the plains of Ascalon to the Desolation.

Didn't think it was confirmed, but I also had a feeling it was, thank you for clearing it up. And the Charr would have been unable to rule down to the Desolation, as it was formed during the Exodus of the Gods, which was long after the humans pushed the Charr north, and before that it is stated that the Charr only ruled to the boarder of the Crystal Desert. Nice speculation joke though.

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Which is nearly as absurd as the link you're trying to make with the Lost Scrolls having been from Fahranur. Honestly..Why can't Fahranur have the Apocrypha and Arah have the Lost Scrolls? Is there something so evil, so undeniably horrible about that that you just cannot even begin to accept the fact, that if you were to do so, it would not drive all your conceptions of reality out the window and break your mind down to the point of insanity?

This I lol'd at long and hard.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by natmarie21

well, can you give me a citation that says that nobody lived at TC? i'm pretty sure that the mursaat did. i'm pretty sure that they resided in rata sum which is an anagram for mursaat. i'm pretty sure that ullen river has a dark shroud which covers the mursaat controlled city of rata sum.

The location of the Mursaat's home is unknown, only mentioned to be somewhere in the Maguuma Jungle *note: The Tarnished Coast is part of the Maguuma Jungle*. About the Ullen River and Rata Sum. They are too far apart to be linked, I think the main Mursaat City was not Rata Sum, and is currently still unknown. Also, notice that Free Runner has stated, which is fact, that the Asura found those cities, and they were all empty when they got there. The only possible inhabitants would be the Mursaat. But seeing how they were not that close to the Shards of Orr *closest is the now Vlox's Falls* and they just wanted to be ignored, I think the Mursaat would just let their supposed cloaking device do the work of keeping them hidden.

Another possibility is that they didn't go to push them out, but whenever the Orrians attempted to explore, the Mursaat killed them *maybe captured for Bloodstone use*, which caused the Orrians to not want to explore anymore, which would have left the Mursaat contempt because they would not be dealt with. Those two are just possibilities that counters the speculation of Orr controlling the Tarnished Coast.

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ok. i've looked in the web. and no where does it explicitly say that the orrians did control tarnished coast, but why would they say that? after all, they fun isn't in the kill, it's in the chase. but there are a number of reasons as to why the orrians would want to control TC. the 2nd great corsair war ended around the time that the guild wars started. before the guild wars started, i think it's pretty clear that orr could see it coming. kryta + ascalon had already started fueding, orr stayed neutral and only intervened when the fight went to them. if orr controlled TC they could have taken the fight to kryta. kryta would be trapped-ascalon in the east, orr, south/west depending on the time and how far north the orrians had travelled.

They would not need the Tarnished Coast in order to sail to Kryta, it is a short enough distance. And as stated above, I just gave a possible reason why the Orrians couldn't explore the Tarnished Coast, therefore preventing them from controlling it.

Gmr Leon · Aug 25, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Aren't the countless Krait, Quetzal, Hylek, Dinosaurs, and Arachnids enough to keep any normal human away?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 25, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

That, my friend, would be another reason. I was just feeding natmarie's want to include Mursaat. Playing along in other words. I would much rather go along with those monsters being enough.

-Random thought, and I am hoping for Free Runner/Gmr Leon to pulverize this-
Seeing how the Asura said that those towns were already there when they got there, IF *and a big IF* Orr really did control parts of the Tarnish Coast, would it be possible that those structures where Orrian and not Mursaat. Seeing how they don't really fit the Mursaat structure. The structures are magical and seem to fit with the idea of a "city of the gods" look, so it would be possible if they just copied the buildings.

Along with that, the Quetzal have somewhat similar clothing compared to the Orrians *at least like the Vizier*. Possible they were once friendly OR that they stole the look from Orrians. *The later is possible with Orr just controlling Shards of Orr*

Like I said a random thought.

Gmr Leon · Aug 25, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

We don't have any Orrian architecture or examples of architecture to compare the structures along the Tarnished Coast with. Also, and this pretty much does rip through that idea, is the fact that similar architecture is found in the Justiciar Thommis branch of Slavers' Exile.

While I haven't done many dungeons, I don't think we see that architecture to such a lengthy extent as seen in that branch of Slavers'. Even then, the only comparable architecture is very little and consists of the gates found in the catacombs traveled through to get to Boreal Station and in the Bloodstone Caves.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 25, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Mmk. I was hoping for someone to shred that thought up. I'll keep it as a tiny possibility, as tiny as the link between the undead in Fahranur and the Orrian undead.

natmarie21 · Aug 26, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

this isn't a discussion, this is an attack!

still, though, ZOMG ZOMG azazeal have you even played prohecies??? to get to riverside province you have to talk to old man joness, who says that ullen river is called dark river, not just cause it's dark, but also cause a shadow is cast over it by 'something...unseen'. this is in kryta, ruled by the white mantle, he white mantle worship the unseen aka the mursaat and the shroud is in the direction of rata sum-at that point supposedly home to the mursaat. did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, that shadow/shroud was there.

i never said that they didn't control the waters, i said that they could have controlled the waters + tc. so your previous comment about my quotation not proving my point is invalid, and it wassn't even put there to prove a point, i put it there because you said that you couldn't see it. don't know why...

also, why wouldn't a historian go with soldiers etc on an assault, they'd be there to record events so that the people in orr would know what was happening and the events would go into history books

Gmr Leon · Aug 26, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

It's an intelligence attack!

I think the general fact that there are a bunch of similar wrecked ships in Scoundrel's Rise kind of defeats your point about it being an attack. If anything I could see it as just being a peaceful trip to Kryta by Thaddeus LaMount that was waylaid by a storm. The other ships in Scoundrel's Rise though...Those are fairly inexplicable..I've yet to see a solid theory on what on Tyria they're doing there.

Plus Az, the Dark River, also known as the Ullen, seems to connect with the river in Riven Earth. That is, before you explore the map, they're connected. Unless I'm mistaken..And I might be, I'll have to do a check.

Whether or not there's a Mursaat city there or in that area around the Ullen River we cannot explore has been speculated, but there's nothing that can support it. So it's really just a hypothesis.